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There has been a discussion about diagnoses, especially Borderline Personality Disorder (BDP) which has sprung up on GG's I have made a decision to stop thread.

Rather than continue to hijack her thread, I thought I would start a separate discussion. That way people who wish to discuss it can do so, while people who do not wish to be involved in the discussion can still support GG without landing in the middle of it.

I would also ask that members please speak with your usual care and consideration for each other and our sometimes differing points of view. We are wounded enough without wounding each other.

(((Yellowbug))) I agree with what you said and know it must be important to you to have said it as you post so infrequently. I am sorry for the stigma you have suffered. I have been in therapy long enough to have faced a lot of judgement and stigma over just being in therapy and don't get me going about repressed memories, so while I cannot completely understand, I can imagine how hard it is.

My personal two cents. (Pardon my bad language but it seems called for). I could give a flying fuck about the label. Any therapist I have ever known who is good at what they do does not tend to pay attention to them. I understand that categorizing and understanding a cluster of symptoms is a way to craft a treatment approach, but it can also be a way to block being open to new information. A therapist should meet a client where they are, be open to what they are presenting and go from there. I don't care if you call what I have PTSD (I am old enough to be diagnosed with the plain variety) or complex PTSD or BPD, what I want to know is what do I do to heal from it? How do I get better? Sometimes I think getting focused on a diagnoses is a form of intellectualism used as a defense against actually working on our issues. After all if I spend all my time and energy focused on "what do I have?" I don't have to actually feel my pain and work through it. FWIW (which probably isn't much Smiler).

AG
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Thank you for your consideration AG.

I think this thread is a good idea. Personally I don't really care about the BPD diagnosis. I own the behaviors. In my case with the T I just left, those are the only traits she got to see "the borderline" ones because the borderline came out in me in that relationship. It does not in others. Each professional has their own opinion. The psychologist I returned to has done MMPI testing and other psychological testing on me plus treated me for 4 years so I trust her opinion. For me the value is in learning what relationships trigger off those behaviors and how to tame those behaviors so that I don't find them necessary. I want to have healthy relationships and I especially want to have a healthy relationship with the T I left. I am glad that even though painful, I am stepping away and reassessing myself and searching for healthier ways to respond to my own feelings. I value that relationship and I value her and I want that to be reflective in my therapy.
You're welcome GG, I know what you are going through is hard enough without ending up in the middle of a firestorm. Smiler

I very much agree with what you said in focusing on how do I learn to have healthy relationships? That really says it very concisely. No matter what we're dealing with, we each have to learn to cope with it in order to live more fully and have more satisfying relationships.
Draggers..... You always make me laugh! Thank you. There is no need for anyone to apologize. I in no way feel as if my thread was highjacked or that anyone said anything offensive at all.

A shitstorm...... I just love that term.

I feel bad if I triggered off anything for anyone but I did put a trigger warning on the thread. We are all responsible for our own responses though, I am glad it has furthered discussion though.

I don't know if you read on another thread about my identity being highjacked but the poor SOBS can have my multiaxis personality clusterf##ck of a life...

I am trying to come up with a new name for myself...... sorry I am getting punchy here.
My T does not use labels. Thank goodness! I would die if I had a label attached to me. Although, I know I have a few things the words and the labels are never spoken. We focus on trying to work through the issues and the pain.

If I was "labeled" I would do just what AG said. I would focus all of my time and energy and resources to researching, and speaking about the disorder instead of how to move past the pain and issues that I need to work on right now.


I do understand the need though for people to have a label and to know that is what is wrong with them.


Thanks AG for moving this.

(((GG))) you are quite gracious.

I think someone's behavior stays the same despite diagnosis and sometimes people react to our personalities based on our personalities - especially if it is consistent over time - regardless of a diagnosis. As a person and the general perceptions we throw out there it brings us certain reactions/relations regardless.

For example it is common for abuse victims to be abused multiple times (I was sexually abused by several people even later in life). Or I would attract certain types of partners. Even with the person I'm dating now I can see that - despite major healthy differences - a part of her history of neglect is attracted to my emotional distance just as I am attracted to the part in her that needs more contact because I've been used to attending to someone else to avoid my own stuff. The dynamic is very slight but still exists... My T has a history of being with distant people who also did couldn't be fully present with her - naturally her H has some dissociative issues and she has 'shadow sides' about her that likely attracted him.

It's not a "fault" it's just human nature to repeat the same stuff even of on a slight level. People perceive me as distant... Because I am and it is my behavior right now. Despite whatever diagnosis I have there are still just plain truths. We are many things - what we are, how we perceive ourselves and how others perceive is. I find the weirdest patterns in how people relate to me... It gives me a lot of frustration and a lot of room for self reflection.

Anyway... We've all got stuff that could fit in to tons of diagnosis. My T works with how I need rather than a treatment model... Reacting to how I am with general guidelines. I also don't like to assign my reactions as something or a model for me to be. Anyway... I'm rambling! I figure if I go hysterical it's not more acceptable because I have "anxiety" rather than psychosis or whatever.

(((Draggers))) it wasn't your fault shit storm is one of my favorite descriptions.
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaJ:
I feel I need to apologise again as it feels as if my hurt feelings and previous trauma over being misdiagnosed and mistreated 20 years ago is being viewed as I have a problem with those with BPD.

That really really isn't the case, it isn't.

AG: I totally agree with you - the problem in my case, when all of this happened to me all those years ago is that the 'label' of BPD DIDNT result in treatment at all. You're right in that the label doesn't matter as long as you're helped and supported to get better. But that's not what happened to me.

IF I'd been told I had BPD and THEN had support, offered medication for my severe depression dissociating and flashbacks, as well as helped to heal and get better, I too wouldn't have given a "flying frigg" about the label given to me. But in my case, the label itself meant I was put to the side, deemed untreatable, with the future being I'd either learn to manage it, or I wouldn't. But don't "encourage" the illness by acknowledging distress in the meantime!

To have any serious mental illness and be denied medication for years, to be treated as if I was highly manipulative, attention seeking; to have my distress ignored whenever I reached out; to NOT be offered the support I desperately needed - was so wrong. Regardless of the diagnoses Frowner

Can you see how my experience was more than 'the label'? That if I had been supported, offered real cafe and treatment, it wouldn't have clouded my views as to 'labels'?

I guess that is the point I have been trying to make. That in a perfect world, no matter the label, you are supported and cared for and treated. But 20 years ago where I lived, BPD was seen as untreatable, and the 'treatment' was to ignore distress and hope the person grows out of it, so that by the time they were in their 40s, they'd have 'learned' how to manage things.

It was mentioned that why is it I won't accept the BOD label but CPTSD when CPTSD is especially the same thing? Hmmm good question! I suppose in that case if they are seen as the same thing then I probably don't have CPTSD either.

Why? Cos as i explained on my other thread, BPD is constant over time and context. And that is far from my experience. I was unwell from ages 18-25. That was when I was diagnosed as BPD. (Even though as it's been pointed out, diagnosing someone with a personality disorder aged 18 isn't accurate). BUT then I had 12 years of being well mentally. During that time I was fully functioning, no symptoms of any mental illness . I did not have PTSD, did not have any 'traits' of BPD, no eating disorder behaviours at all, and aside from a brief episode of depression (when I moved cities and started a new job) I had no involvement with the mental health systems at all.

my being unwell only came about just over 3 years ago when I experienced another major trauma. Since then, I've struggled with severe eating disorders, depression, anxiety and PTSD.

So - in order for me to have had BPD, that means it came, completely went away for years and years and then a new mental illness developed. But the DSM V states BPD is 'consistent over time and context'- it can't be present one day, disappear for years at a time and then re-emerge Confused

I think what I related to about the CPTSD theory is that having prolonged childhood trauma at the hands of caregivers has a very different effect on someone compared to if they had a single trauma as an adult. So I believe the presentation of PTSD in cases of complex trauma will be quite different (with some overlaps) to that of someone who experienced trauma as an adult, not at the hand a of caregivers, and a one off incident.

But that's just me Razzer

When it comes to 'labels' - as I said on the other thread - the ONLY reason why it's even vaguely important is so you get the right treatment approach. someone diagnosed with bi-polar would probably have different treatment needs to someone with obsessive compulsive disorder. A T would adapt their approach in working with the client based on the 'label' but yes - FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY - the INDIVIDUAL client's needs.

And I'm a bit worried people still think I have a problem with people who happen to have been told they have BPD that is absolutely NOT the case. I think if anyone on here had been treated (or not as it turned out) like I had been, then no matter what 'label' they had been given at the time that directly lead to the mistreatment and neglect, would also do everything in their power and ability to run from that label for fear the same trauma associated with it will happen again Frowner.

To phone for help and support when feeling suicidal, unsafe, having dissociation and flashbacks and be told by trained mental health professionals 'well if you want to kill yourself, that's yr choice - we can't and won't be stopping you' - if it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't believe it could happen
quote:
Originally posted by cnfusdemotionally:
My T does not use labels. Thank goodness! I would die if I had a label attached to me. Although, I know I have a few things the words and the labels are never spoken. We focus on trying to work through the issues and the pain.

If I was "labeled" I would do just what AG said. I would focus all of my time and energy and resources to researching, and speaking about the disorder instead of how to move past the pain and issues that I need to work on right now.


I do understand the need though for people to have a label and to know that is what is wrong with them.


Totally agree with this

Thankfully my T doesn't 'do labels' in that we don't focus on the diagnosis BUT of course she knows what it is I'm struggling with and does adjust her approach accordingly. she's more sensitive to the abandonment trauma I have as well as the traumatic relationship experiences the first half of my life were dominated by.

My psych Dr doesn't go on about my diagnosis either; but again - she knows the symptoms and I guess uses the diagnosis (aka the box I fit more closely with lol) to guide her in terms of which medications might best help me with the anxiety and flashbacks I experience.
quote:
To have any serious mental illness and be denied medication for years, to be treated as if I was highly manipulative, attention seeking; to have my distress ignored whenever I reached out; to NOT be offered the support I desperately needed - was so wrong. Regardless of the diagnoses


quote:
And I'm a bit worried people still think I have a problem with people who happen to have been told they have BPD that is absolutely NOT the case. I think if anyone on here had been treated (or not as it turned out) like I had been, then no matter what 'label' they had been given at the time that directly lead to the mistreatment and neglect, would also do everything in their power and ability to run from that label for fear the same trauma associated with it will happen again


Eliza
I think you have made it clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you were traumatized by the label of BDP and that it led to you not be treated for CPTSD. And I also believe you when you say you do not have a problem with people who have the diagonoses. OK? Got it.

But can you please look at this from the other side. If you point to something and start screaming "that's horrible, get it away from me, don't come near me, it's traumatizing" people can feel judged and dismissed and stigmatized.

An example to convey my point. I know you have mentioned using a mobile response team. If I was posting and saying that I called a crisis line once and they sent a mobile response team and I was horrified because that was such an overreaction, I obviously was not bad enough to need a mobile response team, they misunderstood how bad I was and I could NOT believe that I was treated as someone who would need a mobile response team and how traumatizing it was. So that every time you posted about a mobile response team, I would respond and say "I'm not judging you for calling one but I had such a horrible time and I hated being treated like someone so bad a to need a mobile response team." would your reaction be "gosh, AG had a bad experience" or would you feel like "hey what's your problem with people who call mobile response teams? You must be judging me since you see it as such a terrible thing as to need a mobile response team."

The point I am trying to make is that even though it is not your intention, the way you talk about BPD does convey a sense of how horrible you feel it would be to actually have it, and its hard for people who are diagnosed with it, to hear that without feeling judged.

So no one wants to deny your experience or the pain that ensued, just that you would temper how you describe it.

Yellowbug,
I'm so glad you returned to the discussion. Hearing about your experience was very interesting and supported something I have long believed: diagnoses are for insurance companies. And the DSM is an evolving standard that adds and removes diagnoses with each addition. Changing the name or deciding something is not longer a diagnoses affects not one whit the behavior or suffering of a client. Our behavior and beliefs must be brought into consciousness in order to change how we behave and relieve our suffering. It's why I tend more to a "development gone awry" model of psychological problems versus a medical model of pathology that needs to be cured.

I also want to acknowledge that psychology is a fairly new field and the knowledge and treatments have improved dramatically over the last 30 years. Let's hope that continues.

I am very glad that you have found therapy so helpful and have seen such a difference in your life. That has also been my experience and it can feel like something close to a miracle.

AG
Diagnoses can be so confusing, and I was diagnosed BiPolar just to please the insurance folks who need to see something familiar.
But actually I have all the thought disorders of BPD except that I'm not dramatic or violent about it. All I know for sure is I have deep inner child problems and I need a T that's good with Transference dependency.
I've seen six different shrinks and been in the hospital 22 times, and just now have a T that I dare to reveal my inner kid to. I know I'll make it this time.
But diagnosis?...umm. But I would like to know if BPD can be present without violence and acting out. Anyone have a thought on that?

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