Mayo,
Please don't worry about hurting my feelings. The point isn't who is helping you, it's that you're getting help. I am really glad that Jones was able to speak to you in a way that resonated so strongly and provided you with insight. She's a very smart thinkum dinkum, that one.

I very much agreed with all that Jones said to you and I am glad that you are continuing to wrestle with this and find the best way through.

AG

Hi Mayo,

Just checking in to see how you are doing?

Mayo- i too, want to check in... i am still here (Lol) but when i realized the severe/serious depth of these case, i (wisely, i think) chose to not post/say something here, because of language-lacks i might easaly have misinterpreted stuff, and ended up giving totally "off" and bad advices.. Glad to see that you have got much understading and helpful responses here. Both Jones, AG and bebs are so good at this, and i am sure you manage to use whats helpful here, and ditch the rest of it..Just wanted you to know i am still here, (in the background) supporting. I do believe in your ability to manouvre through this, but seek as much support and help you can. I`ll like to echo Jones questons- as i too, think its important that those will be answered, or at least to be expressed to your T. Than take it from there. Riht now, i think some clearity and practical advices are the most needed. I was wondering have you cope now? Whats going to happen between the two of you? Did you end up sending any text? hugs and support your way-

quote:

I was wondering have you cope now? Whats going to happen between the two of you? Did you end up sending any text? hugs and support your way-

Hi Frog and Liese,
Thanks for your support and for checking with me. I found Jones and AG's posts to be so activating that I had to step back. There is wisdom and truth in what they say and seriously something I need to look at, and I will. Since I have been so Hmm.. fuzzy headed- not able to think or connect to the whole message, and a part of me is screaming noooo... can't do it, I am just working on grounding myself again. Jones- AG, I know you are right- you too Beebs, and I will be acting on this- but just need to be clear headed about it. And even though I am a bit better today_ still not strong enough to deal - so for now I am doing nothing. And I don't have a plan yet. I don't quite yet know why this is so strong and so unsettling, but by its sheer power- I know it is important.

I just finished reading a book he gave me to read called Open Minds- Open Hearts about prayer and a type of meditation- so maybe I will initiate contact with a book comment.

"I know all those trauma responses in you are telling you to move AWAY from the conflict however you can - even by giving up on the relationship. But I think clarity and the truth in this relationship is worth fighting for. " by Jones

Jones- this is so true. This is exactly how I feel. As soon as this disolves a bit, I will think about contacting him.

Right now- I am still working on clear thinking. Thanks.

Mayo

HI Mayo,

Is that book Open Mind, Open Hearts a psychology book with a buddhist bent? It sounds like one my therapist recommended. He recommends books, doesn't give them to me .. . If it is the same book, it's huge! How did you read it so quickly.

Wish things were more clear for you. I know how hard it is not to trust. How much it hurts. Like Jones said, the clarity might be worth fighting for ... Keep us posted.

Hi Liese,
Yes, it might be the same book. It is written by a Catholic Monk named Thomas Keating and it does have a budhist bent. (notice the connection Catholic Karen- Catholic book is newest favorite) I am sorry I am really trying to work thouth this and right now- not doing so well. I am very angry at this intrusion, and I am crying as I write.

I was trying to write him a letter, but the words just wont come. I was wondering if Jones would write it for me, because she has good insights- some that I still do not fully grasp, but on a deeper level , I know she is right. I don't know exactly what is being triggered by all of this. and I just can't get the words out to him.

The book is good. It is about Centering Prayer - Contemplative Prayer. This is a type of meditation used by monks throughout history. He raved about it for wweeks and ordered me a copy without telling me. (all before Catholic Karen)

I do pray and meditate in a way similar to this. What hurts the very most is that he says he is open to my beliefs and my ideas, but he is not. My ideas trigger him and subtley make him angry, but not hers- he raves about hers and buys me her book. (I am fairly certain- she is his catholic connection as he never before showed and interest in Catholicism. I was raised Catholic- Catholic school- the whole bit, but at a very young age rejected some of its tenets (please, no offence to anyone, it is just me and my experience) and all of this should have never ever been part of our relationship.

Maybe we trigger each other in emotional as well as spiritual ways. How can we ever clear this? IDK

You guys are my life-line right now because I have no one to share this intimately with.

I am being triggered, then i calm down, then triggered, ... I am trying to work out enough in my head to see this thing clearly and fully, but it aint happening.

Seeing my T last Wed. really did not help becaues I did not confront the issue. I don't know if I can. And if I can't, what do I do. I really want to just crawl in a hole and oretend as though this never happened and never see him again. That would be the easiest solution, I know not the best, nor the most honest, but certainly the easiset and least painful. I truly do not know how to enter this conflict, and yet somehow, somewhere I must gain the courage to do so.

One of his earlier txts to me included the words-" I am confident that we can work through anything" this I am hanging on to, but it was said before Catholic Karen muddied the waters.

I need to get angry at him in front of him but I can't , I just can't. I don't know how.

Maybe I was punnished for my aner as a kid, IDK. I can and do get angry at some people though.

To answer your question- I guess I read it so fast because I really like this stuff, I do find it all very interesting.

quote:

In any case, whatever the explanation, I think you are right that something *has* been already lost, in your finding so suddenly that he cares for another in such an intimate way. We are usually protected from seeing that in our Ts.

Yes Jones- this is what I am feeling.

HI Mayo,

If it's any consolation, I cannot bear the thought of my T sharing anything intimate with anyone either. I don't think I expect anything from him outside of the therapy room ( I could be lying to myself about this) but I am so intimate with him - though he not with me - so maybe that's really a protectiveness coming through ... a protectiveness that is healthy - because it would be hurtful if a relationship he had with someone else infringed on his relationship with me .... does that make sense? I guess what I am trying to say is that in some ways, I think the feelings are healthy. We have entrusted our T's with a great deal.

I just saw a new T at his office the other night and she was cute. I thought to myself, oh what if he liked her? I would go crazy ... and I couldn't even let myself go there and deal with those feelings. But as I said above, I think part of that has to be normal.

I went away for the weekend and think I missed a lot of posts on this thread. I will go back and read them.

Dear Mayo,

You have the words, you have been writing about this here so beautifully and expressively and with your real feelings, your real hurt and anger. I would never want to take your words or your feelings away from you by writing for you. You have my full support - we are here for you. I believe in you!

((((((((Mayo))))))))

Jones

Mayo,
I just want to echo Jones' belief in you and your ability to express yourself. I'm sorry what I said was activating. I think if I were in your situation I would be on a hair trigger. I just wanted you to know that you have my support in whatever you decide to do. I'm sorry this is so painful.

AG

Hi Mayo,

Just wondering if you'd be able to find another therapist who is more affordable. Afterall, the health of your wallet is important also. And, maybe it would be a good idea to continue therapy with someone, if things don't work out with current T. At least to help you process what happened.

Also, it couldn't hurt to consult with someone about what happened. If you were going to a regular doctor and you weren't sure about an opinion, you would seek a second opinion.

Just an update-

I am calmer, and working on the letter. I have not contacted T yet and not sure as of now, when I will, but I will.

Since I've finished the book, and he is interested in knowing my thoughts on it, I will send the book back with all of my margin comments, along with the letter. I don't want the book anyway.

You guys are wonderful- I can pour my heart out- and you "get it".
Thanks,
Mayo

Oh another T- only if I need one. Hard to start over, and .... IDK, I will think about that at a later time. Thanks for caring.

Hang in there Mayo!

It sounds like you are moving in a direction that is helping you to sort all of this out. Whatever the outcome, we will be here to support you.

Thinking of you. (((Mayo)))

Just checking in Mayo .... how are you?

((((((MAYO))))))

Yep, thinking of you, Mayo - wondering how you are going with that letter, and whether you have another appointment?

xxxJ

Weeeeeelll- I sent his book back, and finsihed the letter, but... I only sent the part of the letter that was about the book. I have not called him, and he has not called me, sooo as I muster the courage to do this thing... I am praying that something else (something good happens so that I don't have to do this thing) like maybe he will retire or something, or just get out of the T business, IDK. I should send you the letter pm and get your opinion, because i hate conflict and especially from him.

Thanks for thinking of me Jones and Liese.

Mayo

HI Mayo,

Thanks for updating. I have been thinking of you. I know it takes time to sort this stuff out. Do you really want to leave him and is that why you wish he'd retire? So you don't have to make the decision on your own? Or you just don't want to deal with all the feelings and just wish it would all go away?

Mayo, I wish I could say something, anything, that could help. Just know that my thoughts are with you. For what it's worth, I think you are doing an incredible job dealing with all of this pain and confusion.

(((((Mayo)))))

I've been thinking about you, Mayo, sending you lots of courage and strength! ((((MAYO)))

quote:

if the letter is from your heart and how you truly feel, then you should send it IMO.....things can only get better right?

Hey DF,Liese, Kashley,and Mac,

To answer a few questions- I am not sure if things can get better by sending the letter. I did have a friend read it, and she said it sounds like a nice goodbye letter- in spite of the fact that I asked a ton of questions. Am I completely ready to say goodbye? IDK. So for now I am hiding- so to speak. I don't know what I want yet. Today- I am ok with this. The Holidays are so stressful. So I might need him for surface Family stuff. My husband is depressed and has been out of work for 1 and 1/2 years. He suffers from Depression. And I run from depression, so maybe I can use Mark for this stuff. Also- I need to pay for my husbands therapy so I can't afford to pay for 2 Ts. Bottom line- Today I am ok with doing nothing (except sending the book back with a note)

Liese - it is a bit of both, but more- I do not know what I need yet. I need to limit our stuff to therapy, and nothing else- that I know.
thanks for asking.

Df- If I am brave enough, I will bring the letter with me- and watch him read it so I can observe his non verbal reactions, ans well as listen to his verbal comments. the letter will probably make him squirm. - Hense my hesitation in sending it.

Mayo

quote:

I am praying that something else (something good happens so that I don't have to do this thing) like maybe he will retire or something, or just get out of the T business, IDK. I should send you the letter pm and get your opinion, because i hate conflict and especially from him.

Dear Mayo,

I think this is the first time I have *ever* seen anyone on this forum wishing their T would retire!!!

You reeeeeeeeaally do hate conflict, huh?!! Forgive me having a little smile about this - it's hard, I know, but I also love the little flash of stubbornness that comes through about this. Seems to me like you really just need to take your time with it and do what you need to do at the pace that is right for you. Good on you for writing the letter. You *are* brave. I think the fact you wrote the letter shows you know what is the truth for you and that is the hardest thing.

Hang in there.

Jones

Morning Jones-
It is responses like your last one that makes be believe that you are a T. And if you are not, you might consider this as a profession.
Thank you for your understanding.

Yea, conflicts with the big people in my life are very difficult. I have walked away from relationships because of it. This is not the first time. I would however like to learn how to get past this, rather than just cutting people out of my life forever. This is a part of the attachment piece I really do not get. My T said in the beginning- that I needed to attach to him in a way- in order to work through this- rather than run which is my usual M.O. I have it in my head that I need to talk to him, but I just can't seem to do it. The body screams NOOOOOO... it is not safe. Easier without him- dismiss him. But I know in my head that I am supposed to move toward conflict (AG told me that)so right now I am stuck- torn between the 2, and since I have worked through much of the pain of trauma (sexual trauma) I am not that kind of pain. This is "Dad" trauma now, and we have not done much work there. In a way- this is harder- closer to .... can't finish that thought.

The pervert from childhood- I can clearly see now as a bad man, but my father--- a whole new story, harder to see clearly.

Ultimately- he was the one I am not safe with. He was the one with the final judgements on me- the whole lack of love support crap most of us deal with. Mark by his actions- when we deal with Spiritual beliefs- has crossed into this territory. Yea- bad news. I told him when I first started therapy 2 years ago that our spiritual differences would get in the way- hense my first letter of firing him. (I fired him once after that) But he assured me that it would not happen. I trigger him in these matter, he is not up front with his stuff, then he is not gentle with me, as I try to be with him in this arena.

You have opened up a can of worms- but that is a good thing. The bad part is that I am at work. But I can manage.

Really- ultimately it is all good. Talk more later.

Mayo

Hello everyone-

Just an update- T txt me, because I never made an appointment, I ttxt back and told him I was having trouble making the appointment because of unfinished stuff between us, and that I am paying for my husbands therapy. I told him that there are important things (unfinished business) we need to discuss, but I would rather avoid everything at all cost if that were possible ("...everything in me wants to run for the door instead.")

He replied-with the challenges involved in the art of relationships, asked me if I was enjoying the book (so obviously he did not get my copy returned to him with all of my notes yet- he will get it today I am sure)He said - don't let the money be an issue, come in and talk... but that he is not going anywhere. Then he said something that touched my heart.-
An aside- have any of you ever heard of the Children's book, THE RUNAWAY BUNNY? By Margaret Weis Brown? She also wrote- GOODNIGHT MOON. It is an amazingly touching story of a baby bunny asserting his independence, and basically the Mom bunny is right there to catch him - support him as he runs away to explore the earth. All about a mothers love and support for her baby explorer bunny) Well T wrote this in response to me saying- everything in me wants to run...
"...and I will come gently to find you if you run"
Reassuring for me- but still have not had the nerve to respond or make an appointment, but I was greatly touched by his words.

Thanks all.

Mayo I'm not surprised you were touched by that. Who of us does not want to think that our T's would not let us go, especially if we are not ready to leave the nest. I found out how absolutely painful it is to be shoved out of the nest before you have wings to fly and how much that crash landing can hurt and damage. I LOVE the Runaway Bunny book and have been reading it to my son for years... it's a favorite of ours and I'm glad I can instill those feelings of security that I never had into my son.

I do think you may have to go see your T and lay it all out there and get some answers (about the Karen text) because I don't think it's doing you any good to be in this limbo. I hope it all works out the best possible way for you.

TN

Good luck

Mayo,

That is very touching. I really hope that you are able to take what he is saying at face value and go in and try to work things out. I think this is such a pivotal point in your healing and could really take you to new places. Please keep us posted!

Hi Mayo,

Just wondering how you are doing? Everything okay?

Hi Liese,

Yes most times- I am ok.
I am going to see Mark tomorrow, read my letter to him, then rip it up. I am fairly certain I will lengthen my time between visits. I guess I am trying to create a healthy boundry, and since I have already distanced myself from him, perhaps this will work as the next step. I am uncertain of the outcome, but my letter covers it all- so we will see.

I will post after my session and let you know how it goes. Thanks for asking-
...and how are you doing? I have not been on much, busy at school- work.

Oh Gosh-
As usual - when we are dealing with tough stuff between us, T shows the utmost grace and humility.
Well- I read my letter to him and just as I was about to rip it up (symbolic of I am done with this crap) he asked me not to rip it up. He said that he wanted to keep it and read it again.
I really did say it all in the letter. We talked about Karen, and exactly who she is. I told him that it was his business and that I didn't need to know. Then he offered that she is someone special to him, rather like the person I have in my life. Throughout the entire session he was quieter than usual and I could have been my imagination, but he appeared to be a bit hurt or sad. -

I will write more tomorrow as I am very very tired. I can't even finish this.

I'm so proud of you, Mayo. Congratulations. Rest well.

love,
Jones

The post I could not finish from last week-
Since I was feeling badly, I txt my T the next day to say that I did not intend to hurt him, and his response was sad-
He said that my letter was a direct statement of my sense of things, and that he was hurting knowing that he hurt me and made me afraid to share my truth with him. He said that he would never want to stop me from sharing anything I loved or cared about- or anything else for that matter. And he thanked me for being brave enough to share the letter with him.

I just needed to re-look at this as I am feeling very alone in my house tonight. Family struggles are hard at any time, but they seem to be magnified at this time of year.

oh ((Mayo)) i hear you, sorry your feeling alone right now. We`re here though,if you need support, you know? I am pleased to hear you chose to read the letter to him, and managed to say all the things you needed, and that you finally got to know who Karen is. Looks to me that your T are hurt- to know he has hurted you. And thats making you sad to know, too? Like a cirkle. Atleast that is a strong sign of that he cares a lot about you, i think! It sounds like your T says all the right things,- but i get why that makes you feel sad too..Will you met him again after the hollidays? Are you stopping seeing him, or are you just stepping down the number of sessions pr month? (sorry if you already explained this)

You guys are GREAT!

Thanks Janedoe, DF and Frog- for your kind words.

Things are getting better between me and T. Since I won't be seeing him until mid-january, (my choice- and I can change that if i need to, but I am forcing myself to become less dependent on him- so a month is good) he gives me liberal txting privledges- he says txt any time- especially if I am skiing- to nudge him to get out on the mountain. I do not think he will ski/snowboard with me though, I asked and he did not respond, so that usually means a no. Thats ok though.

Last night- I was having a particularly bad time, and I came upon an EXCELLENT article posted by TN I think. It was about emotional flashbacks and C PTSD. I read it while I was in the midst of one. I was so upset- but the article helped me gain an awareness of what was happening to me. I always thought flashbacks were visual memories- come back to haunt, but since I have so few memories, I did not know I was having flashbacks. They were emotional flashbacks triggered by something happening in the present. (article was very informative). After reading it, I txt my T to share stuff with him about the article. He does not like labels, but when I told him about the article, he mentioned that I don't have C-PTSD, but just a touch of PTSD. He also said to keep txting as he enjoys hearing from me and he likes me because I am a brave soul. I did not txt back, but it was good to hear him be so caring. So I guess this means he is working hard at repairing the relationship - and that is a good feeling.

January 15th is so far away.

Thanks all- night.

Mayo, I'm glad to hear that your T is working hard at repairing the relationship. I know how important it is to you.

I am also so glad that the article helped you regarding the emotional flashbacks. I felt like you did that there had to be the visual component but I see that I have had emotional flashbacks for years and didn't understand them. Unfortunately, I am also having the visual ones lately as well. But I am glad it helped you to read this and it gave you some understanding of yourself. I won't get into the PSTD vs C-PTSD topic now. I do know that Ts don't like labels but sometimes it helps the patient to understand and identify the constellation of symptoms they struggle with.

Hang in there (((( Mayo))))

TN

TN,
This is so fun. You were looking- reading and commenting on my post, just as I was commenting on yours.

Yes the article was incredibly helpful- lots of stuff I didn't know.

So tired, night.

Hugs to you too TN!

True North or Mayo,

I've not visited the Forum for several months and have missed the insight, encouragement and support found here. I have C-PTSD and struggle to recognize any flashbacks that are not visual. I would like to read what TN had to say about emotional flashbacks. Can you share the link with me?

Thanks,
DeeplyRooted