Hi Butterfly Warrior, yes that sucks when no one responds.

I enjoyed your last post and I'm sorry I didn't get around to responding. It was as if I responded in my head because you have been in my thoughts many times.

I think your voice has touched many people, more than you know. Your posts certainly have been very meaningful to me.

I was curious about a couple things. What is behavioural activation? I don't think I've run across that before.

Good to hear there's an SE therapist nearby. Did you end up emailing her? There are some study groups that have had guest clients come in to work with the group...maybe a possible option to consider if you could find a group like that.

Take care,
Shrinklady

"I can't do these baby steps... this is dumb" ... ok that sounds so like me! It stinks doesn't it? You seem to do a lot of reading and are very knowledgeable. That's awesome! I'm sorry you are so depressed this time of year. I think I 'heard' you don't celebrate Christmas? Can you find a way to have a 'good time' visiting others, familly or whatever, without it being 'Christmas'? Our Aunt was a JW and she would join us in singing (except not the caroles). It was a good memory.

Maybe you need a hobby? I haven't got my train up and running yet... been way way too busy!

Later,
Dude

Shrinklady-

This makes a lot of sense to me..

I hope in time, that more about SE therapies can be added here.. research, approaches, etc...

In regards to the change, new expereinces and neuropathways, I think back to one of my neuropsych classes i took where the professor always said "Those that FIre together, Wire together!!" lol. Those being neurons... prevention of neuronal death which is natural but of course we want as many neurons wiring as possible.

I hope one day to get the chance to work with a SE therapist as I believe this is the right direction for me. It is my feeling that often times, at least it's how I feel.. parts of my brain and body is STUCK from the traumas in my life. WHile processing those traumas can be helpful to the psychological coping side of things, this can leave one still feeling like something is missing... and that I believe is the so what now.... what do you do with this space that is trying to open or I don't even know how to word this but I know what I mean.. LOL.

Well Shrinklady, for the things/therapies that brought you here to do this board and be open as you are.. it's cool. It's a nice thing to see from a therapist. I really like the feminist/cultural competency perspective when it comes to relating to clients .. that one can disclose more about themselves then what traditional psychology would teach and that it's even encoruaged to be more like a friend or willing to take that approach because it works better with some clients who grew up in a culture that is family/community oriented. I don't know completely what I'm talking about but yeh.. okay... i haven't slept all night ... lol...

BW

Thanks for your comments Butterfly Warrior, yes Hebb's work...neurons firing together and wiring together...Dan Siegel was talking about him. It's one of the basis for how somatic therapy works...states becoming traits. Neat that you picked on that.

I quite enjoy hearing your comments about SE. I'm so grateful for somatic therapy. Still got a ways to go...my body still creeks when I move. I still get headaches. I need to show up much more. But all of this is improving.

Actually, I've learned that the recent tightness in my body is actually the dissociation lifting...so even though it feels worse, I'm feeling more. This is one of the connundrums of progress in therapy...sometimes, you feel worse...in the same way as one would coming out of freeze. However, the other side of it...I feel as if I have movement...so I really resonate with your concerns over feeling stuck.

Somatic work is such a fundamental shift from where the field of psychotherapy is currently. I think that unless a therapist really experiences its benefits, it just seems like another tool to them.

I also think us therapists need to be more public...to remove some of the mystery around going to therapy. Course, this requires that we "show up" and probably in a way we didn't sign up for when we decided to be therapists. I had a lot of ambivalence about being on this board at the beginning...still do to some extent. I haven't seen too many models out there to follow so I'm sort of breaking new ground. The hard part is knowing what boundaries I need to attend to. It's sometimes fuzzy...no clear answers.

As a group, us therapists have been terrible at promoting the benefits of psychotherapy. I think we need to make it public that therapists see therapists, that counseling is valued among us and it can benefit us all. The line between the therapist and the client isn't as divided as many people think. In other words, therapists have their stuff too. If we stepped forward more about this, maybe it wouldn't be so stigmatizing to people to seek therapy.


It was working somatically that I came to understand that all these divisions around different disorders are not as neatly delineated as we think. By the way have you read Bob Scaer's work, The Body Bears the Burden or the Trauma Spectrum? I think you'd enjoy his work. Talked about him in the human nervous system articles.

Good chatting with you,
Shrinklady

P.S. Dude, a hobby is a great idea. Helped me out of depression years ago...I got into design and feng shui. At the time, I was living in a 16 foot ceiling condo. It was awesome fun.

Dude.. lol.. yeh.. I'm a little sarcastic cynical in my daily movements.. hahaha...

I do have some hobbies .. mostly writing poetry, painting, swimming, and reading. I havn't done much of those lately except I have been doing some poetry and a bit if sketching at times.

Shrinklady-

Thanks for your responses, etc I was just in a mood.. lol..... they tend to capture me at times... LOL.

Aww.. yes.. Hebb.... didn't rememeber the name but now it' slike YES, lol. Strange how those things come back. I went to UCSD (University of California, San Diego)- a very very VERY research oriented university and as a result my foundation in psych and human development is based primarily, strictly in research. In some ways this has been cool and I have learned a lot but on other way's it's confining because these types of programs try to create comformity to the point that anything 'not validiated' by research is not valid.. like... play or art therapy.

Behavioral Activation is a newer form of CBT that doesn't focus so much on you're thoughts and changing them but more on the actions. Most people who are depressed don't feel liek doing this or that so BA says well you need to do this and that.. lol.. but in small steps so that the person isn't overwhelmed. THe more a person accomplishes these steps. the greater 'mastery' is felt over them therfore helping boost their mood. So it's working on activation of behavior... working right on those things you litteraly do to help alter mood. It's fast and concrete and is something someone can think to do even without the help of a therapist once they are used to doing them. I guess this is a really lame explantion of it but thats my interpretation of it.. lol. It has shown a lot of validity, test-retest relibility and all of that in both inpatient and outpatient settings. I have to say that I do like it while I fight the 'baby step thing as I call it because of my Type A personaility, I have to say that when I find myself stoping and reducing activities, I will think.. well I Know I need to start an activity and start putting pleasureable things in my life (ie. going out to eat with a friend this week or going to the library to check out a book)... so it's an immediate reward...

If i have the chance and find a good article on it, i will post it in the science and psych section.

So more tension is good? That's really nice to realize that you have more feeling and awarenes salthough on the other hand, it can seem/feel rather negative and aversive. I had an expereince like that where my psychiatrist really offended me and I cried (something i DON't Do in front of others) and my therapists reaction was "oh good, that means you're starting to feel your emotions more".. i was so taken aback like gee thanks a lot!

I do think that a lot of people don't go to therapy ot don't end up liking it, etc is because they feel their therapist is perfect or unreal. I know for some clients, they dont want to know their therapist is really human.. lol.. but I know for me personaly... my last therapist esp... Holly was very real with me and shared parts of herself with me and it truly helped me in many ways. I miss her for that alone but also so much more. My current therapist isn't so much like that. She isn't closed off but she is pretty much like there for me.. I feel that... I know she cares. she makes that very obvious but like i feel like I don't really know anything about her.

That book by Bob Scaer sounds really interesting. I haven't read it but I will ladd it to my list of books to look into.

No, I didn't email the SE therapist in my area. Still thinking about it. I don't think it would hurt to but I have been lame about getting things done lately and so sensitive to stuff that I guess I don't feel like taking any risks that might end up bringing me stress.

It's just been a hard week for me mood wise... I'm quite tired and can't seem to beat this intensive sleepiness I have. I slept from noon to near 11pm today and I've been doing that quite a bit. I know my sleep schedule is reversed but just the same, that is A LOT of hours and if i get up before then.. I'm just sleepy as heck and feel so tired, it's of no use to fight it.. than I think.. who cares. just go to sleep.. lol....

and than life goes on...

Butterfly Warrior,

Yeah, when you're tired, you're tired. So, I hope you just allow that to happen. Is the tiredness related to this time of year...did you get my latest newsletter? I talked about that.

You're Type A, eh? Well, it sounds like it's a good thing to be resting. Think of it this way, your body--and your nervous system--is learning something new.

Yes, I can see how behavioural activation would work. One of the most amazing things I got from somatic work is that I could finally see how change occurs. (I couldn't understand why other therapists weren't making more of this.)

I had recently read that it was the "behaviour" in CBT that was accounting for more of the change so what you're describing about behavioural activation sounds right on. Somatic work amounts to the same thing but we add a few things to make it more likely one can succeed at it. We add imaginal work (i.e. imagining the behaviour) and then gauaging the amount of change wanted with the amount of activation in the body so that's it's titrated. We then reduce the activation associated with the behaviour.

The somatic piece helps you to avoid setting yourself up for something you can't handle. But the more important reason--we think--is that by doing this in the presence of another nervous system, we're actually laying down pathways for that change.

So, in the session you build what's necessary to make it happen rather than talking about it and trying to do it on your own. So you create an "experience" in the brain. Doing a behaviour does this too. It creates an "experience" in the brain.

That "experience" with your psychiatrist sounded like his comment came at you from left field. It's too bad because in order to start feeling, we need a lot of safety...the nervous system needs to calm down...that comment would probably put me right back there in freeze mode too.

So, "feeling more" has its draw backs especially at the beginning when you don't know how to deal with emotions that have been blocked away for a time. When I wasn't seeing a therapist for a few years and I started to come out of freeze majorly, I moved right into fight. Look out!!! (Feeling much better, thank-you.)

Chat with you later,
Shrinklady

"feeling more" has its draw backs especially at the beginning when you don't know how to deal with emotions that have been blocked away for a time."

last therapy I basically cried the entire time. I just couldn't stop the tears even when i tried my darnest. She says it's 'a good thing' though it feels, honestly, like shit at the time! I'm not much of a crier.. I'm good at fighting and arguing though! i don't know what the 'switch' was (HA! no pun intended :P ) but I feel on the verge of tears a lot! I don't know how to deal with it actually... I tried so hard not to cry that I got a headache (though the tears still flowed!)I'm not sure how to cope with dignity!

Dude
p.s. things are a bit better... having a hobby (my new train track) makes a big difference!

That's good to hear you're feeling a little better Dude. That train set sounds fun. My grandfather had a train set up in the basement. It was awesome...tunnels, a bridge, forts. I haven't thought of that in years.

Shrinklady

Was just chekcing out your newsletter... but really don't have the 'brain power' to concentrate!

Dude

Hi, I've been lurking for a few weeks and really appreciate the site. I have to keep my left brain happy in order to let my right brain function and all the information on the site has been a great help. This thread really hit because of both the topic of processing sessions and how we experience change.
Butterfly Warrior, I often have a great deal of trouble remembering sessions beyond general emotional impressions, I think because of my level of activation. When my emotions are really intense I have a lot of problems taking anything in. So it was a relief to read your post and realize I'm not the only one. The most effective thing I've found is to do a journal entry as soon as possible about the session where I don't so much write down feelings as write down as much as I can remember aobut what got said and what happened. Helps to read it later when I am processing. Hope that helps.
I really sympathize with the new therapist thing. I've been in therapy on and off for over 20 years (can you say long term?) and my therapist of 18 years retired two years ago. It was a really significant loss which took me awhile to work through. But I've been making incredible progress with my new therapist and have gained a level of trust I find pretty suprising. Hang in there, but be patient with yourself. It takes time, and should, to build trust with a new therapist.
Which leads me to the discussion of the therapy experience. I'm dealing with a background of both physical and sexual abuse by my father. I didn't remember the sexual abuse until in my 30s when I was triggered by having children. My first therapist was a woman ('cause who would ever trust men?) but I ended up going to a male therapist after she retired. Which turned out to be a really good thing. We've been doing really significant work in the area of attachment and its taken me a while but I've learned that the only way to make it better is not understanding it but to experience over and over the fact that I can go to my therapist and seek out attachment and not have it be a bad thing. These experiences are in effect "rewiring" my brain so that I can convince all of me that moving toward relationship is a good thing. I was really blessed by finding an amazing therapist who really gets this and has been there in an amazing way. So Shrinklady, I absolutely get what you're talking about now, but that understanding came after a great deal of work and confusion! Sorry I went on so long, its good to have somewhere to say this where people will understand.

Hey Attachment Girl...welcome to the site...couldn't have picked a better name.

Thank-you for your comments. Yeah, it is so hard to describe some of the concepts...I was really glad to read what you had to say, to know that the ideas are resonating with some people. And, I'm so glad you mentioned the idea of "experience". That's what it's really about.

I was laughing with my therapist yesterday on this topic and the topic of trust. I spend a lot of time just sitting with my therapist these days letting my body learn to trust another human being. I don't need to say too much. I'll talk about something and then after a few minutes, I'll process it at a somatic level. This takes much longer, so I end up just being with her not saying too much other than I feel this sensation or that sensation. We were laughing just to imagine a whole case load of clients like this.

Therapy would be a hecka of a lot easier for therapists and clients. But peoople would need to understand why this was actually doing something.

Something to think about, eh?

Thanks for joining us,
Shrinklady

Thanks for the welcome! I definitely get what you're talking about. One of the things which identifies for me when I'm really feeling the trust is that I can "rest." I'm a babbler by nature, especially when I'm nervous, so just sitting and being takes a lot of trust. Another great thing about my therapist, he's good at still being there even when its quiet. Thanks again for the site.

Attachment Girl

Interesting, the idea of talking or NOT talking during therapy. lately, we have our T 'touch' the littles a lot... hold their hands,r ub their backs, etc. As one of them says, too much hits need a lot of touch to balance it out.

robin

hi Robin, your comment about the littles was sad to read. I'm glad they have someone who understands what they need.

We comfort babies this way, rubbing their backs. It helps to bring the parasympathetic nervous system online (the relaxation response).

I remember that for 6 months during my early therapy, I had that urge for someone to rub my back. I think I was coming out of dorsal (a shut down state of arousal). I wish my therapist had had the courage to do this for me.

Thanks for your comment,
Shrinklady

Robin,
I can definitely relate to needing a lot of safe touch. That fits with what we were talking about earlier, that its not just understanding but having new experiences that actually changes you. Glad you have a T who gets that. BTW, I've really enjoyed reading your posts on the forum, I really appreciate your willingness to be so open about the littles. Having done work to recover small parts of myself that got left behind gives me an immense amount of respect for all that you're handling. And with a sense of humor!
I had a therapy session this morning and did something I've never done. I was feeling really scared all the way there (ok, starting the night before : ) ) because I was uncomfortable about the stuff I needed to talk to my T about. I walked in, sat down, and said I just wanted to sit for a few minutes until I realized I was safe. My T asked how it felt being so open about how I felt and I realized that it felt really good. The level of safety I have with him still feels really strange as I've never had that with a man before. Pretty cool and provides a sense of progress. Did I mention I babble? : )

AG

Interesting... I didn't think of it as exactly sad. Here's an interesting 'progress report' ... when we first started in therapy, this particular inside little would sit right by the door in case she needed to bolt. And our T couldn't go near her at all (she had to sit in a chair on the oppostie side of the room). And if anyone reached out to touch her, she figured you were going to hit her, and she winced. Nowdays, this same little is the one who is aching for touch! She will just sit beside our T and put her head against her shoulder, or hold her hand. The little is also getting quite the sense of humour (ask our T, whom you, Shrinklady, know, about her 'that was easy button') - robin

That's wonderful. Yes, it sounds like things are looking up.

No, I was just sad to think where that innocent comment might have arose from, obviously from a scary place. But I'm glad to hear things are better.

I won't ask your T, just to preserve the little's privacy...and to secure her feeling of safety.

But thank-you anyway,
Shrinklady

confidentialitiy is a tricky thing!

and, by the way, we have our Abnormal Psych. exam in just over a week! YIKES!

studying with so many insdiers is an interesting challenge... there's alot of info. they don't need to read about! however, they are also very curious. one good thing, if we ever get into a master's program, we have a little who is a whiz at mathematical concepts... it looks like (if we get in where we want) we'll have to take statistics!

robin

Hi Attachment girl- Welcome here to the group. I have been gone along while but read your posts. Sounds like you have a great therapist that supports you in your healing journey. I like your n ame here.