((((((Jill))))))

I am sorry you feel like you are falling apart. What a rotten thing to experience, that T you called turning on you like that. WTF?? Who the frick CARES what her "name" is? Unless...unless this particular T you called happens to have a guilty conscience from having let someone else down...and maybe she thought you were her, calling incognito? Who knows what her problem was.

I am no T, but I have done a LOT of reading on BPD (because I once identified with a picture that was included in a BPD article to illustrate how BPD feels), and I don't think your reaction to this is symptomatic of BPD whatsoever. IMO it is the reaction of a sensitive person who reached out again, AFTER having been treated unexpectedly badly by someone in a "helping" profession, only to be treated badly AGAIN by someone in a helping profession. You are being let down by people who are supposed to be trying to help you. I think your refusal to name names, and your sensitivity to her waspishness, is good and normal. It was HER reaction to your refusal to name names that is disordered.

We are so quick to blame ourselves when someone else treats us badly, we blame ourselves for causing it, and then we turn right around and beat ourselves up for having feelings about it, too. It is one thing to examine ourselves for our "part" in any disagreement...but when you are thinking you might have BPD because someone in a helping profession treated you poorly and now you are shaken by it, then I think it is time to reevaluate. It sounds a lot like what we learned to do when our caregivers let us down, doesn't it? Both the hurt and our hurt over being hurt, all our fault, in an effort to keep them "good". Because we didn't have a choice.

But now we do. And if meeting with T3 is going to be toxic for you, Jill, then it is okay not to go. You don't owe her any part of an ethical bargain, she already failed you so the bargain is off. Take care of you first. And if you do decide to go, I would really encourage you to do whatever you need to, even postpone the session, so you can take someone else along.

Hugs,
SG

quote:

It sounds a lot like what we learned to do when our caregivers let us down, doesn't it? Both the hurt and our hurt over being hurt, all our fault, in an effort to keep them "good". Because we didn't have a choice.

But now we do.

strummergirl, that is so true. i fault myself because i 'sense' pain and no one else speaks up to accept blame so I do, even when i am not to blame, in an effort to keep my caregiver 'the good guy' because it is too disastrous to even consider that the person in charge of me is bad, or having a bad day.

yep, SG, very good. how long did it take you to put all of that together. very insightful. i wish i could snap it together like that, but even when my logic agrees, my body is still swaying on the edge of something i can't quite name.

how long is this road??

wow, is there ever an end??

thanks sg for your kind response. i took my meds and have calmed down a bit. your last paragraph? i don't know, i can't figure out what to do. i don't know how she can look at me, i really am a good person, and she knows it. she knows she did me wrong and didn't accept any responsibility...just the thing she ragged on my previous therapists about. ya wonder how some people look themselves in the mirror sometimes.

must suck being her. hurting people in a 'caring profession'...pushing them farther down than they were when they came in. she was parading all my abuse in front of me, pushing me farther and farther away, i think to help me validate it, but when she saw i was way in the deep end, she left me and told me i need to act like an adult.

oh, i so hope God straightens it all out in the end, i believe He does, and that the pure in heart will see God's face.

thanks, sg. jill

guys, i have been reading about borderline personality, and i think that is me, i have the waves of confidence and these waves of terror and panic. the all or nothing thinking. i 'present' well, and then, like with this last therapist kicking me out, i sense rejection, and somehow, it always happens, and then i am falling apart wondering when this cycle will ever end. i hate t3 so much for terminating me so unfairly, rather than say she is not equipped to handle me and dealing with the real issue, that i am borderline, she just traumatizes me and reinjures the already FRACTURED SELF. oh, i really want to sue her for her treatment, but am too broken down to even see straight....then these rare fleeting periods of 'full composure'.

is there anyone out there who is borderline to help me know there can be an end??? a cure????

i am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO UPSETTTTTTTTT!!!

help !!! i really would love to talk to someone with this same dx, even pm, i feel so alone and unknown!!!!!!!!!! anyone!!!!!!!!???????????? jill

Jill.... I'm too tired and weak now after the surgery to post much but I think you need to consider also that you may have complex PTSD and not Borderline Personality disorder. They do have overlapping traits... but one is a personality disorder and the other is an anxiety disorder. BPD is Axis II and PTSD is Axis I (I believe... hopefully I didn't reverse that in my painkiller haze).

Do your research on complext ptsd and trauma and see how that sounds to you. Do you have a stable marriage? a stable job situation? have you live in one place for a long time? do you have friends? most BPD will answer no to those questions.

Thinking of you
TN

true north, thanks, i know you are in recovery mode...so thank you for responding. i do have stability in relationships, but this latest termination deal has just about done me in. i can't get anything done, i just worry about all this stuff. i did some 'schema therapy' testing and was axis 2, which i showed her and she didn't really look at. i am PURELY a black and white thinker, terrified of abandonment (reinforced with this assinine therapist), see myself as flawed (as she supported saying i was not cooperative in therapy, which is pure bunk, i did everything she asked) idk, how can a therapist boot you out of therapy coz you touch their anger button. what a wimp she is ... i am beyond distressed. i feel like i have just kept this borderline stuff at bay for the last many years, and now that it has erupted, i am left with no one to help me, the only one that knew it abandoned me. un fing believable.

i just see 'me' on that dsm stuff and start shaking, and don't think i can 'be' myself with a therapist ever again as they will just kick me out like this lady did. and she knew all this stuff.

oh, i was so unjustly treated, no one cares in this profession. sorry, no one cares about ME in this profession. out on the curb.

and she knew what i had, she TOLD me, and she booted me.

and sent me the crisis line.

sorry all, i know i am not adding anything good here. i just sit and wonder and cry and revisit her promises she made, and cry and hate her and love her, and read this dsm diagnosis and then cry and she is just glad to be done with me.

i pray for justice in this world. in this profession. in MY life, and in YOURS, too.

f.

Jill...please don't sit there and cry. You are way more than any diagnosis whatever that would be and that awful T3 is not worth your tears.

FWIW... I am also a total black and white thinker. For example, my recent surgery. I could only think that it would be horrible... and something would go wrong. I could not entertain the thought that it was a not so great thing but it would turn out okay and after some pain in recovery I would be just fine again and back to normal. I am also TERRIFIED absolutely scared to death at being abandoned. This is why my T saying I need to see another T....even if just for some EMDR or trauma work was feeling like total abandonment. He could not get it into my head (and still cannot) that he is NOT abandoning me... it feels like abandonment. He has almost shouted at me that he is not abandoning me... but I cannot hear him. I know he's frustrated. I am not BPD I have complex trauma with a deep attachment injury. When I can get myself focused enough to link some research here I will. There are people who have listed the traits of someone with complex trauma and attachment injury, fear of abandonment, inability to regulate emotions, black and white thinking and self-loathing and dissociation are huge parts of the syndrome. People with abuse and trauma backgrounds are at huge risk of complex trauma and this CAN be healed. Give yourself a break. You will be okay once you locate a therapist who has experience with these issues and who can be there for you. Please cross that nutty T3 from your mind and search for a trauma/attachment T who can help you.

Hugs
TN

quote:

even if just for some EMDR or trauma work

yes, that is a good start, for some reason, oh yes, i recall, she TOLD me she had experience wtih this type stuff...i went with t3, but she is just cbt and not great at that. i just have this ocd thing that i cannot move on until justice is done. i know she knows she mishandled me, that is why she is trying to cover her ass. i dunno. i would like to talk to an attourney about it, i just hate to let people like that continue to hurt people like us. a lawyer friend knows a medical malpractice person. it is just so embarrassing, but i guess they have to keep it confidential.

i have a very good paper trail, and an incredible memory and notes. and the papertrail itself is convincing.

ocd, can't let it 'go' and shitty people go unchecked. hell's angel...advocate for the abused...idk, just can't seem to move on. too many lies. too cruel. i just can't let 'bad' treatment go unchecked!! and i have an eye for detail, and never forget a forgotten promise. unethical people really chap my a$$, and i guess i should just let God sort them out, but, oh, i am stuck. and can't imagine trusting another therapist. ever. stuck. strike three, i am OUT.

tn, thanks, in your weakened state to talk to me about this. i am glad your surgery went well. the black and white thinking is nice to look back on something, like your surgery, and see that there is a grey out there.

this abandonment issue seems to be the very inner core of a person's being. i don't know what is more primal. and when the chord is strung, the elements align, there is no more depleting state. i am sorry you have to have that as well.

i would like to learn more about trauma, i did get an axis 2 score, and TRIED to lighten my answers to stay 'in line', but it just isn't there, and she knew that.

oh, if i would just not care about justice my life would be so much more simple. how is God using me here??? is this my 'duty' or am i deranged??

thanks, tn, hang in there, hope you heal fast!!! you are a kind soul, jill

Hi Jill,

I'm sorry you're having such a rough go of it lately. I haven't posted much, but I've been reading and my heart aches for all of the pain that this latest T caused you. I don't have much to say, but just a few comments.

First, considering this T's CBT orientation, I imagine that she just doesn't have the patience (or, in her specific case, the caring, empathic nature...or anything kind for that matter) to deal with anything on Axis II. I think that in many cases of personality disorders (if that is, in fact, the most appropriate diagnosis) there is quite often a very early, very traumatizing injury, and the disorder is born as a defense against the pain of it. IMO, that injury has to be addressed, and for most CBT therapists, going that far back is just not what they do. I do believe that CBT can work in SOME cases, but NEVER exclusively...not one approach is a cure all, and I think that therapists are utter fools if they think that there is one best way to conduct therapy. I didn't know it before taking the class, but one of my classes this summer dealt with behavior change from a CBT point of view (taught by a professor who has a private CBT practice), and I can see where it can help....in extreme moderation and in conjunction with some other approach that integrates a psychodynamic type of thinking.

Sorry for the rant - I was probably storing that up after listening to my professor for 5 weeks rant and rave about anything that went anywhere beyond the here-and-now. He was ridiculous! Hmm...maybe his psychologist wife is T3? Hehe.

Hang in there, Jill. You are so, so much more than a diagnosis. There ARE good therapists out there. ((((((Jill))))))

Hi Jill,

Sorry to hear about your situation...

With what you wrote here, I very much doubt you have BPD. You've recently been under a lot of stress, or maybe should I say put into a stressful situation and it is somewhat normal to experience some pretty intense 'mood swings'.

Also, I can pretty much second what Kashley said about CBT. I find it useful when treating mild cases of specific disorders such as anxiety or OCD but that's about it...

thanks kashley, sorry you haven't been posting much, i hope you are doing ok? it is neat that you are studying this all in school, i wish i would have. and yes, this axis 2 stuff, i know i am more than a diagnosis, but i feel like i can better attack the issues if i know, we know, what they are. and cbt is not touching this stuff i carry. she, t3, told me her vast experience with this, and i naively believed her, even though i saw cbt on her profile. she sold be a bill of goods, and i let her and chose to buy. so i accept that responsibility, and that is why i am so stammered to go up to bat again.

i've got the early traumatizing injuries, and then some, bad car wreck at two i heard too much about, near death experience at two (drowning), severe burns at 4, etc. so, i DID grow up in constant fear as to what was around the next corner. nightmares, wouldn't go to sleep, tried to sleep in parents room til ten. yes, a whole mess of 'odd circumstances' plus a bit of s.a. from a schizo sister...just a part of the party of my childhood. so i know, even though many had it much worse, i got the stuff. i am interested in hypnosis, too. i still feel there are recesses i haven't uncovered.

MHP, thanks for that reassurance. and y'no, i don't care so much what i HAVE, i am not going to 'brag' about it to get sympathy from anyone, i just would like to i.d. the beast. i don't WANT to be a victim, i am most encouraged when i read about the resilience in humans, and want so much to BE that and to MODEL that for my kids, as it is a skill all need to master. a good friend, a t, suggested the book, the resilient self, and it may come today, i ordered it.

i have always done 'self cures'...used to read alot of nathaniel branden on self esteem, but i do find i have a mighty fine house of cards, when all cylinders are firing correctly, but when the 'certain chord' gets strummed of attachment fears....slow meltdown into anxiety, and if all five strings get plucked as they did with t3, the perfect storm...then i am five and inconsolable. the really worst part of that termination meeting was not the first forty minutes when she was mean and punitive and telling me i wouldn't work with her. i got mad and could stand up to her, but the worst was when, at the end, when i asked her if there was anything NICE she had to say to me, and i don't recall what it was, but she said something nice, and i FELL APART. to see the change from her, the same person, being mean and then nice must have really been a mirror of my mom. and the utter confusion i felt as a child. that is when i started crying hysterically. wow, what a trip that was. i felt a part of my heart was pulled out and torn in half. and this was only after 20 hours or so in therapy. TRANSFERENCE MOM ISSUES!!

thanks both of you, jill

quote:

As opposed to 'an OCD thing'-I understand what your saying. It could be the preoccupation element of a disorganized childhood attachment. Whatever it's called, the concept seems to me to be the result of being triggered of past traumas-betrayal for one

uv, i just saw your post, you must have posted at the same time i replied earlier to the others.

interesting take on the ocd, yes, a disorganized attachment...hmmm, i need to learn more about that, as that seems kind of right on. very disorganized, in fact, the love and hate T3 showed me, just felt so familiar. a really scary feeling to love and hate the same person, and to see such conflicting messages from this ONE person.

your quote """I had severe OCD anxiety-again, another new symptom-which I turned to obsessively reading about psychology-to distract from obsessing about him/our brief relationship. It was better than obsessing about the T as it ended up being the most useful way to cope at the time. Of course, there are healthier coping means-but it does not help to hear people say "meditation! exercise!" lol. Really, playing out my OCD/preoccupation-whatever you want to call it-by reading anything about object relations that I could get my hands on, probably is the only thing that kept my sanity intact. And it took a long time for it to dissapate."""


yes, i am obsessing in reading. and right now my trust is so low, i don't know what to look for, in my GUT, as she seemed so nice. and told me all the right things, that she was very qualified, etc. so, reading is what i have been doing...and disorganized attachment presents a whole new arena to obsess on, rather than law suit fantasies...altho i do have five years to file with her board. i have checked that out.

"""I'm not sure how it somehow evolved into some sort of code for 'difficult patient'""" (your quote) ...i didn't know that, is that a sort of code for difficult patient? i am still reading what you have said about axis 1 and 11, i know i tried to retake the test to 'tame' my answers to get off of the axis 11, but, didn't really help much. my issues are the black and white thinking and the 'fundamentally flawed' persona, that T3 sure seemed to agree with, the bitch. wow, my t friend explained that when she would tell me stories, she was somehow trying to get my approval, to 'parellel' her life with mine...we both didn't know how to express anger as a child, etc. and then when i got angry with her, she couldn't handle it as a therapist should, to use as an avenue to dig deeper into my issues, but, that she was 'narcissistically injured' as the relationship in her mind was out of the appropriate reigns of therapy. interesting take. an insight i hadn't realized, but she did seem, so often, to want to 'impress me' with her clients 'portrayals', and the 'people' she knows and has 'had in her office...we are friends' type comments...BARF!!!! i guess they are sometimes just as weak and insecure as their patients!!

But it's not about treating your symptoms-its about healing your inner wounds. Inner wounds are not 'personality disorders'.

yes, healing those inner wounds. what is the perscription?? that regression therapy she did was just more trauma and no cure, and she didn't know how to control how far she took me, or when. just not in tune with me.

anyway, much thanks uv for your detailed reply, i am still pondering what all you have said, and i agree, i can 'hide' this stuff so easily, but just coz i can hide it doesn't mean it is not there. i remember my brief two sessions with Dr. Sleepy, i couldn't seem to convince him i needed to be in therapy!! he didn't see it, he, just about said one time. geez, do i have to sit on the floor and vomit or cry to let someone know i am hurting inside?? wish i'd a had a camera in that termination meeting...i'd have played that and therapists would just RUN OUT THE DOOR!!! makes me feel like no one accepts that very real and very broken part of me (other than, and thank God for, my husband!) he saw, and he knows it is real, despite t3 as much as giving me a clean bill of health! thanks all, and uv for so many thoughts i have yet to fully absorb!! jill

got another vote in the 'win' column on bpd traits...so lovely...the most dreaded client of all, and here i am!!

do you know the nutty thing about it? before i started therapy a year ago, i bought this herbal medley called 'herbal equilibrium'...i actually thought a $25 herbal supplement would cure bpd features!!

i really threw it all out there last session, i think dbt gal is convinced i need to be there. but, she said she isn't 'wary'(she said another word) of me....glad she is used to volatile emotions, coz i got 'em!

hope she can really handle it, and not freak like psycho t3...jill

Jill

...even if you do have BPD, and I'm not sure if you do, BPD is really treatable and recoverable and DBT was first developed to treat BPD. One study found that majority of patients hospitalized for BPD symptoms no longer qualified for the BPD diagnosis 6 years later. (I know 6 years is a long time, but the study didn't say it was 6 years of treatment. Treatment varied for each client in the study.) The point is, people get with BPD get better! Many people with depression, will have it years later, sometimes struggle with it for a lifetime. Same with a lot of other diagnosis's. BPD and PTSD are very very treatable and are known for being the most recoverable mental illnesses.

My T says I have some "features" of BPD. She says just about everyone does - to some degree. Even her.

There is stigma amoung some mental health proffesionals for clients with BPD, but please please don't let that limit you or get you down. (I know, WAY easier said than done.)

OK, that all being said - I know lables are sometimes very useful. At the same time, this diagnosis DOES NOT DEFINE YOU. I just wanted to say that just in case....

I used to work with clients who had BPD at my old job. (No I didn't treat it, I was a case manager who helped them get what they need.) So I have some experince with this diagnosis from several different angles. BPD is very different for each person.

You sound super discouraged lately... please please know, there is hope. Diagnosis or not, I believe you will get better. Why? Because of your honesty, self awareness, persistence, and resilency. Whatever diagnosis is used to label your battle, I believe you will get better. Things won't always be this way.

many hugs jill. I really think you are awesome.

~jd

p.s. I think you have a great t too. Hang in there with the DBT. It may drive you nuts at times, but DBT type of therapy helped me so much to get to a place where other kinds of therapies really work well now. I still use so much of the DBT every day. I hope your t and you are a great fit. Even if it falls apart - and I really don't think it will, especially because your T doesn't seem "afraid" of treating BPD - you will recover. You will get better...

and if I am sticking my foot in my mouth (dang I think I may have both of them in there) please forgive me.

take care

janedoe, thank you. i do like her, dbt gal, and i really am optimistic that she will be good, it is just the waiting. and she again repeated that i am not 'full blown disorder'...FEATURES...and she said that everyone has features of something (except my husband, wow, what a sane man...emotions, don't get me wrong, but his parents raised a good man, and i really need it in parenting, for him to, for now, handle the hard stuff!!)

""Because of your honesty, self awareness, persistence, and resilency."" wow, jane doe, those are the nicest things i have heard in awhile...t1 used to tell me stuff like that. i know from a (good) distance, i appear perfectly sane...just don't trigger me!! and, you know, i used to keep it under so much better, and while that feels discouraging, i am trying to look at it like the onion is getting peeled closer and closer to the core. i am terrified what will happen when i get to the core. can't imagine...maybe it will be anti-climatic? no walls to blow down and make a big mess like before...i ramble...

i feel those emotions just boil so fast, it is actually amazing how, and i am sure y'all are, too, how things change so quickly within when i get triggered. i am sure my heart beats faster, all the physical symptoms...even the weather, if it reminds me of my childhood weather conditions, triggers me.

i know we all have stuff, but thanks, ms. doe...confirmation that i am in the right place...dbt...does help. she is good, too. kind, a bit stern when she needed to be, in a soft way, not mean, firm, i guess.

and i have this wellbutrin kicking in, so, who knows, maybe i can just work this stuff out.

and no, you just have a halo glowing, no foot even NEAR your mouth. i would SO rather people be honest with me then tell me stuff that doesn't make sense just to make me feel better...so, thank you. (and your honesty does make me feel better).

thanks, jill

((do you ever just marvel at how nice this community of cyber strangers is!! so nice to be able to be yourself, and GENERALLY, not get STUNG!!))

p.s. your kindness and amazingly sweet heart will get you through too! I mean every word!

btw, I can relate to emotions going, as I've said about myself, 0 to 10, (on a scale of 1-10, 10 being super intense), skipping every level in between. Somtimes even 0 to 57. After doing a lot of DBT work, I now have emotions in the middle. I still feel emotions at a 10 sometimes, and sometimes they still run away with me. But I can take a 10 and live through it without jumping of fthe proverbial deep end. And, more and more, I actually *experince* my emotions at a 4 or 5. It's actually been such a huge change that sometimes I think (and say) "what the heck is this (feeling)?" Then I'll realize, oh, I'm sad or mad or a million other feelings and it's just not at a 10, but a 5 or so.

your t sounds really good. I hope you hang in with her and she keeps being helpful to you!!! I hope the welbutrin helps too. I have been on medications for a couple months at a time and I've found it helps me get a little more ground on what I am trying to work on. It's not right and doesn't help everyone, but I hope the wellbutrin gives you more space and room to keep growing and not have to struggle so much.

you just plain rock.

keep posting,

~jd

yes, janedoe, there is no grey on my scale...numb in a dissociative state OR knees giving in.

and sometimes i am sooooo off target in my judgments (a word i am learning in there...and trying to realize all judgments are not facts...news to me!) and when i see what REALLY happened, the facts i had imagined so badly, it is embarrassing!!

thanks again! jill

Phew! Wow, I finally did it! I created this account just so I can help, if it helps to shed some light on this forum...
K, Here it goes, and if it doesn't apply, no worries. But if it does, it's a God thing

I notice that we all get so wrapped up in labeling our mindset and personality in the language of the professional. I wanted to be a psycholigist since I knew the meaning of the word, but decades later, I have decided that just because they have a degree does not mean that they know how IIIIIII feel or have more bearing on who I think I am. And, I've said so to a new counselor and since than he has thanked me cuz I was not going to let him lable me or try to distract my thought process by redirecting with questions when I wasn't even done putting all out there. I too have done all that bpd's depressives, and anxiety driven people do, but we are not limited to our diagnosis. We are individuals...we should live as such. Don't look for reason Why everything you do is exactly what "they" said is to be expected of you. Be YOU! Everything you are, just treat other people the way you would want to be treated and all is good and God will make your life Flow. I came to embrace my traumas, history, defects, and strengths. I improve on what I can, and do the best I can to be "God like and He loves me for trying. He loves you regardless. If you ever get a chance, read a book called "Survivor Personality" I read it 5 years ago and wont even lend it out for the fear of forget that I did. It taught me that those of us that have gone through some tough stuff are stronger & better for it, and for it happening to us, do you think we'll ever let happen to anyone we love? No, we are warriors for peace, we see dangers because we have been there, our senses are sharper for it. We are not Dysfunctional (as even I used to feel like) we are smarter, stronger, & wiser. We teach others to avoid what we had to go through so that we can prevent (hopefully)them from making the same mistake. We become the angels that God needs to look out for others cuz we have been there. We are survivors/warriors for love and peace. So, love yourself, quit labeling yourself as bpd or anything else, that would only be useful if there was a pill for exactly that personality set of traits. Be and individual and embrace the You that you are getting to know better every day of your life. Remember, the book is called SURVIVOR PERSONALITY!! Go to the book store and skim through it if you can afford it, long enough to know what is special about us as Survivors! Life is hard, but without the hardships, we could not appreciate the depth of our happiness without have been down & out in between...we are stronger for it.

Godgirlwarriorprincess, thank you for registering and welcome to this forum. i appreciate your kind and encouraging words, and will check out that book. sometimes i feel strengthened by my hardships, sometimes they get the best of me, but one thing you remind me of, is that God HAS a purpose for me, even in these childhood years which scarred me so, but, now maybe it is about finding that purpose with my own family and others. and yes, the golden rule is a good fall back thought when you don't know what to do...i need to let go of the frustration of when others don't follow it, but know that God will 'sort them out' and i don't need to hang on, nor should i hang on to the injustice in the world. do my part, and God will handle the rest.

oh, how right it all gets when i remember to put God up front in the picture. and how EASILY i slide back into this world.

thank you for your efforts to pass these thoughts along to me and others!!!

it means alot! jill